Ji Ho Yong (Yong Ho Ji): Rubber sculpture. “I am number one on the list of those sentenced to death by the North Korean regime”

Harry Knyagnitsky: Mr. Tai, I understand that you fled with your wife and children in 2016. Tell us the story of your escape and how long did you prepare for it?

Tai Yong Ho: It's a long story. I was a North Korean diplomat for about 30 years. He worked in European capitals: Denmark, Sweden, Britain. Working in Europe, I learned what Western freedom and democracy are, and understood the difference between a democratic society and the totalitarian regime of North Korea. This comparison made me question the North Korean system. But I continued to work in the DPRK because of my connections, relationships, and relatives.

Everything changed when my children grew up. They received education in North Korea, and in British schools. As members of a diplomat's family, my sons and wife traveled with me and lived between Europe and Pyongyang, moving from country to country every three to four years. At some point, the sons began to ask a lot of questions about the North Korean regime, about their lives and the future.

GK: Excuse me, how many children do you have?

TX: Two sons. When they began to understand the ideas of freedom and democracy, I, as a father, felt that I simply could not force them to return with me to the DPRK. In North Korea, their future would be miserable. And I decided to run.

GK: But you're a diplomat top level. You have everything in North Korea!

TH: Yes, you are absolutely right. I had many privileges, including economic ones. But I decided that the freedom of my sons and my personal freedom was more valuable than anything else. I just wanted to give freedom to my children and myself, so I decided to run away.

GK: How long have you been preparing your escape? It’s not easy to just run away from the Korean secret services.

TH: I've thought about this a lot. Planning took several months. I was waiting for the opportunity to escape from the embassy quietly. In general, North Korean diplomats are not allowed to leave the diplomatic mission building on their own, only accompanied by other diplomats. Therefore, I was waiting for a chance to carefully remove the entire family from the embassy at once and without escort. I had to come up with a convincing story for the ambassador and colleagues.

And so, one Sunday afternoon, I said that I wanted to go to one of the British pubs to watch a football match. In London, as you know, everyone watches matches in pubs, not at home. Pub culture is very popular. In short, I simply said: “My children love football, I love football.” And it turned out to be a very compelling story. We left the embassy - that's all.

GK: There was information that MI6 helped you escape. Did you find them yourself? And if they did, how? Or did they recruit you?

TH: This is a very sensitive issue. I cannot talk about my interactions with MI6, MI5 or the CIA because this story would make the work of many governments very difficult. I can't comment on this.

GK: Yes, I understand. Here we are stepping on thin ice, that is, it is clear that we have touched on a truly sensitive issue. And since Mr. Tai is reluctant to talk about this, in general, draw your own conclusions. Mr. Tai, but what happened to your relatives in the DPRK? Were they in danger after you escaped? Were you worried about them?

TH: I have a brother and sister left in the DPRK. I was completely cut off from communication with them and thought that they would be punished for my escape. But suddenly, in April 2017, the North Korean regime invited a team from CNN to Pyongyang and allowed them to record an interview with my brother and sister. They wanted to show the world that despite my escape, the North Korean regime provided security for my family. My brother and sister were shown on CNN. They were very angry at my escape. The North Korean regime forced them to say on camera that I was a traitor, scum, all that. And I was just glad to see their faces again. After this interview I never saw them again.

GK: They can be killed, right?

TH: Not sure. They could be sent to the Gulag or expelled from Pyongyang. I don't have any information at all. There are camps in North Korea where the relatives of defectors are sent.

GK: That is, in the camps there are special departments for such people, right?

TH: Yes.

GK: And are there many people there?

TH: Yes. Judging by satellite images, there are now more than 200 thousand people in the gulags of North Korea.

GK: But at least they are not killed or executed?

TH: Nobody knows whether they will be executed or not. I don't know.

GK: But were you ready to put the lives of your brother and sister on the scale when you decided to escape?

TH: Yes, I understood perfectly well that my escape would entail a lot of suffering for them, and even for my nephews and nieces. Because North Korea is such a country. But with all this, I thought: “What about the freedom of my children?” So I decided to run away. Perhaps this is my destiny, my destiny - to tell the world about the North Korean system. I wanted to accelerate the disintegration of this system in order to give freedom and democracy to all the North Korean people. If all North Korean defectors remain silent and afraid of the Kim regime, we will never be able to change the regime in North Korea. We need change.

GK: Is it possible?

TH: Yes. If we unite, if people talk about what is happening in North Korea. You know, this evening I am meeting with the parents of an American student, Otto Warmbier, who was also killed. So when people like me, like Otto Warmbier - victims of the North Korean regime - when we stand up and say it loudly...

GK: Do you know what exactly happened to Otto Warmbier?

TH: I don't have exact information about what exactly happened. But I'm sure Otto Warmbier was tortured. The North Korean regime has still not given a clear explanation. I believe we should all join forces and demand an explanation. We must protest.

GK: There has been an international coalition against North Korea for a long time. And South Korea, and the United States, and Japan - many oppose the regime of Kim Jong-un and Kim Il-sung and, in general, this entire Kim dynasty. But nothing changes. Decades pass and nothing changes.

TH: You are right, but such changes cannot happen overnight. It's a long process. But I will repeat the most important thing: people like me must boldly and openly tell their stories to a global audience. Otto Warmbier's story must be told and heard.

Look, for example, at what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany. At that time, the victims of Hitler's dictatorship did not talk enough about the tragedies that took place in the country. When the world learned about the fate of innocent people in Hitler's concentration camps, it was already too late. The world needs to unite to stop this regime. Of course, these changes will not happen overnight. But if we continue to talk openly about all these things, one day the world will come together and we can make change.

GK: What does it depend on? From outside influence, from the international community, or from the situation inside? From the extent to which the people themselves, who are oppressed, are repressed, whose representatives are executed? How ready are these people to rise up and make some kind of revolution?

TH: I think there are two ways to go here. On the one hand, we must unite the world and increase international pressure on the Kim regime. At the same time, everything must be done to educate the North Korean people to fight and rebel against the 70-year dynasty of totalitarianism and dictatorship! And despite the fact that the Kim regime is using a policy of terror against its people, changes are already taking place in the country! These changes come from the bottom to the top.

For example, today in North Korea there are many capitalist-style private markets. Their numbers are growing despite strong resistance from the regime. At the same time, the demand for information from outside is growing. For example, North Korean millennials watch South Korean and even American films. An incredible amount of films, dramas, and works of Western culture are smuggled into the country. Why? Because there is demand! People are willing to pay for it. When there is demand, there is supply. People don't watch North Korean movies, they watch South Korean movies. I see this as a change.

GK: Where did they get this opportunity?

TH: There are a lot of smugglers. They import goods across the Chinese border and then sell the same films on private markets. For example, there are 20 episodes of a South Korean television series. Usually a private seller gives away the first episode for free on a USB stick. A person watches it and gets hooked on the entire series and pays for the remaining episodes. This kind of external culture is permeating and spreading throughout the country, especially among the younger generation.

More and more young people in North Korea want to emulate and follow the lifestyle of South Koreans. They go to the black market to buy South Korean or Western style clothes. Girls buy the same bags as in South Korea. Pyongyang already has many coffee shops and tea rooms, expensive restaurants where people who earn money through illegal means want to spend it.

In general, life in North Korea now is very paradoxical - in fact, it is a primitive capitalist society. North Korea was founded as a socialist state, but the system is clearly not working, so many are getting richer while others are getting poorer. The inequality between the rich and poor classes is only increasing. And I think one day people will rise up to fight for their rights.

GK: If I understand you correctly, the North Korean people still receive truthful information about how life works outside the DPRK.

GK: With completely empty stands.

TH: Yes exactly.

GK: Why?

TH: Because Kim Jong-un is afraid to show this World Cup match to his people. He is afraid of the North Korean team losing. Kim Jong-un claimed that he was a genius who made North Korea a strong sports nation. But if 100,000 North Korean spectators see their team lose to their neighbors, it will undermine the entire propaganda system. North Korea is the only country in the 19th century where people were not even allowed to watch a football match. And if the leader of the DPRK is afraid to show a football match to his citizens, this clearly shows the level at which the system is located.

GK: And if the North Korean team had lost, would the players have been shot?

TH: They would not have been shot, but they would have been criticized in their political organizations.

GK: But they wouldn't even be sent to prison?

TH: No. But they would be criticized. More importantly, losing the North Korean soccer team would damage Kim Jong Un's image.

GK: Fine. Mr. Tai, have you heard about the Russian girl Maria Butina, who was arrested in the United States?

TH: Yes.

GK: In your opinion, is this case against Maria Butina political? Did she accidentally break the law, or was she actually spying?

TH: To be honest, I do not have independent information about the reasons for her arrest, so I cannot give a clear comment on her case.

GK: Well, emotionally, at the level of sensations, when you learned this story, did you think: “Oh, poor girl” or “Oh, you unfortunate spy”?

TH: To be honest, when I heard about her case, I felt some compassion for her. Not sure if she's actually a spy. I don't really understand why she was arrested.

GK: And in North Korea, is there at the level of diplomats, students, any citizens of the country, an attitude to look out, track something and be sure to report everything to Pyongyang if you somehow ended up in Washington?

TH: Today, North Korea has a permanent mission to the UN in New York. More than a dozen North Korean diplomats work there. Every year, scores of North Korean diplomats attend UN events in New York. On on a daily basis they keep Pyongyang informed of current American policy. In addition, nuclear weapons negotiations are currently underway between the United States and North Korea. The North Korean regime is always seeking to understand American policy, as well as read President Trump's mind and what is on his mind in order to properly prepare for nuclear disarmament negotiations.

GK: Do you believe that Trump and Kim Jong-un will be able to reach an agreement on something, some kind of disarmament?

TH: No I do not think so. It seems to me that Trump understands perfectly well that Kim Jong-un will never agree to disarmament of North Korea. But Trump wants to continue playing games with Kim Jong-un. Trump intends to run for a second term as president, and the elections are much more important to him than the denuclearization of North Korea, so he will use the North Korean agenda as an argument for his re-election. He wants to control Kim Jong-un in the format of some kind of moratorium on nuclear tests. Trump is eager to show the American electorate that he was the one who achieved a moratorium on the Kim regime's nuclear tests. At the same time, Kim Jong-un also wants to play games with Trump because he believes that President Trump is the right person for Kim to buy time.

Kim Jong-un understands perfectly well that Trump will not impose new sanctions; Trump wants to maintain the current level of sanctions and the current atmosphere around North Korea. Kim Jong-un seeks to preserve nuclear weapon as long as possible, and he believes that Trump can provide similar conditions and give the opportunity to buy time. These two people play the same political games, which is why they are interested in each other.

GK: Is it true that in 1999 North Korea approached Israel and made the following proposal: Israel gives North Korea $1 billion, and for this money North Korea undertakes not to transfer nuclear missile technology to Iran?

TH: Yes, I was one of the members of the discussion group for this deal. Negotiations were conducted in Stockholm with the then Israeli ambassador to Sweden. At that time, Iran wanted to acquire North Korean nuclear missile technology, and North Korea wanted to sell it because the country needed foreign currency. But if Israel agreed to provide North Korea with currency in cash, North Korea would refuse the sale nuclear technology Iran. This is the deal we proposed to Israel. Israel responded that they were ready for a deal, but would not be able to pay in cash in American dollars. Israel was ready to provide $1 billion in agricultural or humanitarian aid, not cash. And in the end, the deal fell through precisely because North Korea needed cash, which Israel was not ready for.

This story confirms that North Korea needs foreign currency and foreign investment. And if now the United States is not ready to provide money to the DPRK, then North Korea will look for other “buyers” of its nuclear missile technology. And there are enough potential buyers in the world. This could be Iran or another country. There are people on the world market willing and ready to pay for North Korean nuclear missile technology. Therefore, I believe that President Trump and global community should be very careful and closely watch North Korea's next move in this aspect.

GK: Is it true that there is an attitude towards North Korean diplomats who work abroad so that they buy more foreign currency (due to cash shortages in North Korea) and bring it all back to the country with them?

TH: There are two categories of North Korean diplomats. Some are professional diplomats like me. Most of those working at the North Korean mission in New York are career diplomats. Such people are not instructed to bring currency back into the country.

But there is a second category of North Korean diplomats, their goal is to seek and secure financial profits for the North Korean regime. These employees are usually sent either by the Ministry foreign trade, or large business companies. These people are engaged in illegal operations, and if they do not provide income for the North Korean regime, Pyongyang will recall them. So there are two categories of diplomats in the service.

GK: Aren't you afraid for your life? You travel freely around the world. Aren't you afraid that you might get killed?

TH: I am number one on the North Korean regime's death list. That's why the government protects me South Korea, I am always accompanied by security. Kim Jong-un is an absolutely merciless guy, he even killed his uncle and brother. Someone like me is nothing to him. But first of all, I'm very careful. And secondly, in South Korea I have serious security.

GK: But they can always poison you or add something. Just remember the Skripal case. last years People in Russia, unfortunately, have become quite familiar with the topic of poisoning: Litvinenko, Skripal...

TH: Yes, yes, you are right. Even Kim Jong-un's brother was killed toxic substance- a little liquid on the cheek and that’s it. But if I were too afraid of such things, I would have to stay at home all the time. If you want to start a campaign like this, the first thing you have to be willing to do is take risks! Otherwise you can't even go outside.

The Kim regime has a rich arsenal of methods of political assassination: they can easily poison with water or even simply spray something in the air. Yes, anything. Therefore, I am ready to be killed at any moment.

GK: A very courageous position. You were at one time responsible for contacts with Western journalists in North Korea?

TH: Yes, I was in charge of Western media, which is based in London.

GK: What could they film and what couldn’t they? What to talk about and what not to talk about? How were they accompanied?

TH: First, I understood that I myself had to pretend as best as possible. Otherwise I would have been suspended immediately. So I pretended as best I could to be a dedicated defender of the North Korean system. Whenever I met with members of the foreign press in London, I always presented myself as a devoted defender of the regime. Despite the fact that he himself thought differently. At the same time, when I wrote reviews of the foreign press, I tried to do them as objectively as possible, since Kim Jong-un had to read them.

I believed that Kim Jong-un should understand what foreign media were writing about him. I tried very hard to try to somehow change his position, but nothing worked. Kim Jong-un is a very smart guy. He reads the news. He uses the Internet every day. He listens, reads and watches news from South Korea every day. So he is well aware of what the rest of the world is saying about him. That is why he spares no effort to isolate North Korea from the rest of the world.

GK: What do people in North Korea say about Vladimir Putin? Liberals consider him a tyrant, a dictator, and conservatives say that he helped the country rise from its knees and made Russians feel confident in themselves and in the future?

TH: In general, North Korean citizens treat Putin very well. They believe that compared to previous periods of rule, especially Stalin's, the current regime in Russia is freer and more democratic. The Soviet Union was a dictatorship of one communist party, which completely controlled the country.

North Korean citizens believe that Russians now have more freedoms than they do and want similar freedoms as in Russia. Even though today's Russian system totalitarian, Russia has more freedom and democracy than North Korea. Russians can travel abroad freely. They have the right to open their own shops, restaurants or factories. There is some basic degree of freedom. And as long as Russians are silent and do not openly criticize Putin, everything is fine. You have the Internet, you can watch American films. There is no internet at all in North Korea. In North Korea you cannot criticize the system at all. And in Russia people can go out to street protests.

GK: Do you personally like Putin?

TH: I have complicated feelings for him. I don’t like such a manifestation of force as the occupation of another country, I mean what happened to Ukraine, Crimea. But at the same time, Putin at least allows people to take to the streets in Moscow: sometimes we see anti-Putin and anti-government demonstrations.

GK: They are arrested, detained, and their legs are broken. A man was just passing by, and his legs were broken. Strange things happen there.

TH: Yes Yes. All I'm talking about is the ultimate level of freedom. I would like to raise the level of freedom and democracy in the DPRK to the current Russian level, you know? This is my first goal.

GK: You see, Russia has room to strive. Don't strive, but fall. Okay, tell me how you explain this paradox. As far as I know, in North Korea the shelves are empty, people have little money, not much food, not much food at all. At the same time, are the children of the ruling elite (I think your sons lived quite comfortably) well off?

TH: North Korea is a paradoxical society. Newspapers, textbooks, the entire educational system brainwash people that North Korea is a socialist paradise and people are all equal. But in reality, the level of inequality is so great that the rich are only getting richer, while the poor are getting poorer. If you visit Pyongyang, you will see tall skyscrapers. But once you go outside, even ten minutes by car from the capital, you will see that the bulls are still plowing the land. No tractors, animals still work in the fields. Two completely different pictures in North Korea.

Today in the DPRK everyone is aware that there is no socialist paradise there. Everyone in North Korea is well aware that the so-called “North Korean distribution system” has completely collapsed. This is publicly known information. This is why there are so many private markets in North Korea. But Kim Jong-un's regime does not accept this.

GK: In one interview you said: “We need to pour gasoline on North Korea and let the citizens set it on fire.” Why did you say that?

TH: I believe that today the citizens of North Korea are intimidated by the politics of terror. They saw Kim Jong-un's uncle executed. People are intimidated. In the short term, the policy of terror leads to instant control over society. But if the terror continues for a long time, one day people will rise up.

Such a policy does not solve problems. How can we pour gasoline on North Korea - that is the question. My goal is to smuggle as much information into the country as possible to educate the citizens. The first task is to explain to the people of North Korea that the current system is very stupid, that Kim Jong-un is not God, he is just an ordinary person. Such processes, of course, can take a long time, but I want to gradually give people the opportunity to learn more about the world.

GK: But you don’t mean specifically the destruction of the country?

TH: What do you mean by destruction?

GK: That is, literally “douse it with gasoline and set it on fire.”

TH: No, of course, we are not talking about destroying the country. I use the metaphor of fire. A fire that will destroy the system and create the preconditions for building something new. When I say fire, I mean the fire of wrath that will cause the people of North Korea to rise up and change the country.

GK: How many times have you met Kim Jong-un?

TH: I have never met him in person. I only saw him in the distance. But I knew his brother Kim Jong Chol well. I spent three days and four nights with him in the same hotel, in the next room. It was in 2015 when he came to London for an Eric Clapton concert. I was a friend of his brother, but I never met Kim Jong-un in person.

GK: Which one do you think is the most main secret Kim Jong-un keeps? A secret connected to him personally.

TH: I think Kim Jong-un is paranoid. Today he is the only 30-year-old in the North Korean government. He is at the very top, but the people around him are 60-70 years old. He works with friends of his father and grandfather. There is no one around him from his generation. What I would like to recommend to Kim Jong-un: he should not be afraid of the people around him. After all, he is afraid to even show a football match to his citizens.

GK: Is there any conspiracy against him?

TH: Of course, there are some conspiracies. But usually the paranoia comes from him. Imagine working with people 30-40 years older than you. He has the impression that people don't respect him and all that. And that's why he's so paranoid. For example, just recently he ordered all the windows of the high-rise buildings around the Central Committee of the North Korean Workers' Party to be painted over. Even in the most representative Korea Hotel, foreigners cannot see outside. And all the windows on the high floors of residential buildings around the Central Committee are painted over, ordinary people cannot see what is happening on the street. This is too much paranoia.

GK: You're talking about those 60-year-old people around Kim Jong-un. How do they feel about Kim Jong-un? Sincere and great love? Or disgust, disgust and desire to overthrow him?

TH: Those people from his circle are very afraid of losing the privileges that they have while at the top of power. They believe that as long as they keep Kim Jong-un in power, in return they can be confident in their current living conditions and privileges. So there is a kind of general solidarity between Kim Jong-un and his circle, but Kim Jong-un does not trust these people. And that is why he often changes people in places. For example, in the North Korean army, generals cannot remain in their posts for more than one year. He changes the Chief of the General Staff every year. The Minister of Defense changes every year. His environment is constantly changing; he does not want anyone to remain in power for more than one or two years. And thus he controls the current North Korean system.

GK: How many wives does he have?

TH: Not sure. Kim Jong-un is somewhat different from his father. My father had many wives. But until now, Kim Jong-un has demonstrated to his people in every possible way that his only woman is his wife Ri Sol-ju. His father did no such thing. For the North Korean people, Ri Sol-ju is the only First Lady. But I have no idea what's going on in his personal life.

GK: Is it true that he can literally point his finger at any woman on the street, and they will immediately bring her to him?

TH: I have no idea.

GK: Fine. Do you feel like a traitor?

TH: To some extent, yes. Because I received an elite education in North Korea. Kim Jong-un gave me many privileges and opportunities. He even allowed me to take my children with me to London and give them a British education. In terms of my relationship with Kim Jong-un, I should not have fled the regime. Nevertheless, I did it. So by North Korean standards, I am a real traitor, yes.

But at the same time, I believe that the Kim family are traitors to the North Korean system. Because the North Korean people and the system gave them absolute power to serve the country and people, and they used this power for their own family business. Therefore, as for the traitors, they were the ones who betrayed the noble cause of the revolution in North Korea. According to North Korean communist theory, they should not use their power to restructure the state so that it serves one family. It is not right.

GK: What would you do if you were Maria Butina? Would you go to jail? Or would you tell everyone everything? Although she spoke in general, she still considers herself a person who defends Russian interests in America and does it sincerely.

TH: I would like to know the truth about what really happened. It is very difficult to understand what she did while in the US. I have not seen any serious evidence that she was engaged in espionage. Therefore, I believe that the most important task of the American legal system is to prove whether she is actually a spy or not. I think this is the main task this moment. I just do not know.

GK: Have you ever told yourself any secrets of North Korea?

TH: What kind of secrets do you mean?

GK: I don’t know, nuclear, reconnaissance?

A modern sculptor from South Korea, Yong Ho Ji, chose a rather interesting material for his works. The car tires from which his sculptures are made are no longer just rubber. Using an ordinary car tire, the sculptor can show the smallest anatomical features and the nuances of their wonderful creations. The selected flexible material allows this to be done at a fairly high artistic level.

What’s interesting about Yong Ho Ji’s works is not only the unusual textured material, but also the eye-catching animalistic images that he creates. In his sculptural works you can see various representatives of the animal world. Many of the Korean artist’s works represent images and forms he invented. The sculptures are similar to animals from modern films about the inhabitants extraterrestrial civilizations or aliens from the future. They are in some ways very similar to earthly inhabitants, but they are some kind of hybrid creatures. And despite such a non-standard approach, such creatures look very realistic and believable. Yong Ho Ji has his own vision of the world around us, even his personal website (yonghoji.com) is different from everything that can be seen on the Internet.

After carefully studying the photographs of sculptures from Yong Ho Ji, I realized that he was making them from completely new tires. In the courtyards of our cities there are much simpler figures made of tires, but this is the “second” life of “bald” rubber. I think that if a Korean sculptor were given old tires from a Zhiguli to work with, then who knows, he would have produced such works of art.

The photos shown here are taken from yonghoji.com.